Comments on: Three good reasons for web designers to use tables http://www.aaronrussell.co.uk/blog/reasons-for-web-designers-to-use-tables/ Freelance web and graphic designer, Swindon Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:08:32 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9 hourly 1 By: Aaron http://www.aaronrussell.co.uk/blog/reasons-for-web-designers-to-use-tables/comment-page-1/#comment-6532 Aaron Fri, 10 Oct 2008 08:19:19 +0000 http://www.aaronrussell.co.uk/?p=210#comment-6532 Hi Annette - thanks for sharing your views. Listen, I always take the approach that 'some' is better than 'none'. I think you realise that a standards-based approach is the way to go, and you've taken the first steps into achieving that by developing your CSS skills etc. If your sites look good and your clients are happy then you've got your priorities right. Hi Annette – thanks for sharing your views. Listen, I always take the approach that ’some’ is better than ‘none’. I think you realise that a standards-based approach is the way to go, and you’ve taken the first steps into achieving that by developing your CSS skills etc. If your sites look good and your clients are happy then you’ve got your priorities right.

]]> By: Annette http://www.aaronrussell.co.uk/blog/reasons-for-web-designers-to-use-tables/comment-page-1/#comment-6083 Annette Fri, 03 Oct 2008 13:11:02 +0000 http://www.aaronrussell.co.uk/?p=210#comment-6083 It was really interesting to read your post. I am a graphic/website designer who has been designing website for around 12 years and obviously started with tables. Today I still use tables (aagh!!), however I use style sheets and my navigation is all css styled. I use very simplistic tables, I don't nest very much at all. I have dabbled with full css layouts on and off but always tend to go back to what I know, as it's quicker and I am confident that it will view how I want it to in most browsers. I always have a heavy workload so haven't had the time to put into developing those skills but I am starting to feel that I am inferior because I'm not on the full css bandwagon. It was really interesting to read your post. I am a graphic/website designer who has been designing website for around 12 years and obviously started with tables. Today I still use tables (aagh!!), however I use style sheets and my navigation is all css styled. I use very simplistic tables, I don’t nest very much at all. I have dabbled with full css layouts on and off but always tend to go back to what I know, as it’s quicker and I am confident that it will view how I want it to in most browsers. I always have a heavy workload so haven’t had the time to put into developing those skills but I am starting to feel that I am inferior because I’m not on the full css bandwagon.

]]> By: Aaron http://www.aaronrussell.co.uk/blog/reasons-for-web-designers-to-use-tables/comment-page-1/#comment-2411 Aaron Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:43:21 +0000 http://www.aaronrussell.co.uk/?p=210#comment-2411 <strong>Brian, Tracy and Lucinda</strong> - Thanks for the comments you posted a few weeks back. I'm really sorry I didn't manage to respond to them personally sooner. It's been a time consuming affair getting my business off the ground. <strong>Brian</strong> - Yeah, Outlook 2007 is one of the worst. But believe it or not, is probably slightly better than Gmail for CSS support. <strong>Paul</strong> - Absolutely, I don't disagree with you there. But for people like you and me who work with this every day of the week, what can we do about it? Not a lot apart from do the best we can with the tools we have and try and create beautiful work... with tables. <strong>Joe</strong> - Not quite sure what you're trying to get at - the purpose of my post is not to advocate anything. I appreciate the history of email and the controversy surrounding HTML in emails, but whether we like it or not, HTML email marketing is here to stay. As web designers, we have to work with that. <strong>Nathan</strong> - So you're one of these anti-table evangelists? ;) Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I completely agree: in a previous job I had to fix someone's handiwork who'd used DIVs and SPANs for tabular data. It looked fine in our browser at work, but as soon as you viewed the page in anything less than 1600 pixel wide window, it broke! Badly! Brian, Tracy and Lucinda – Thanks for the comments you posted a few weeks back. I’m really sorry I didn’t manage to respond to them personally sooner. It’s been a time consuming affair getting my business off the ground.

Brian – Yeah, Outlook 2007 is one of the worst. But believe it or not, is probably slightly better than Gmail for CSS support.

Paul – Absolutely, I don’t disagree with you there. But for people like you and me who work with this every day of the week, what can we do about it? Not a lot apart from do the best we can with the tools we have and try and create beautiful work… with tables.

Joe – Not quite sure what you’re trying to get at – the purpose of my post is not to advocate anything. I appreciate the history of email and the controversy surrounding HTML in emails, but whether we like it or not, HTML email marketing is here to stay. As web designers, we have to work with that.

Nathan – So you’re one of these anti-table evangelists? ;) Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I completely agree: in a previous job I had to fix someone’s handiwork who’d used DIVs and SPANs for tabular data. It looked fine in our browser at work, but as soon as you viewed the page in anything less than 1600 pixel wide window, it broke! Badly!

]]> By: Nathan http://www.aaronrussell.co.uk/blog/reasons-for-web-designers-to-use-tables/comment-page-1/#comment-2383 Nathan Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:19:43 +0000 http://www.aaronrussell.co.uk/?p=210#comment-2383 Not using tables for tabular data is extremely hypocritical. The whole reason people became such anti-table enthusiasts was for the sake of semantics and standards. Well, newsflash, tables are the most semantic and standards-compliant thing around when it comes to tabular data. They aren't deprecated, for crying out loud! Just use them properly. The trend seems to be that designers are simply jumping on the CSS bandwagon, not because CSS is better, but because they are afraid of being ridiculed, and they don't really understand whats involved. (Note: This is a generalization, so please don't be offended, anyone. ;) ) (Discounting tabular data, I suppose I could be labeled as somewhat of a vehement "anti-table evangelist." ;) ) Not using tables for tabular data is extremely hypocritical. The whole reason people became such anti-table enthusiasts was for the sake of semantics and standards. Well, newsflash, tables are the most semantic and standards-compliant thing around when it comes to tabular data. They aren’t deprecated, for crying out loud! Just use them properly.

The trend seems to be that designers are simply jumping on the CSS bandwagon, not because CSS is better, but because they are afraid of being ridiculed, and they don’t really understand whats involved. (Note: This is a generalization, so please don’t be offended, anyone. ;) )

(Discounting tabular data, I suppose I could be labeled as somewhat of a vehement “anti-table evangelist.” ;) )

]]> By: Joe Clark http://www.aaronrussell.co.uk/blog/reasons-for-web-designers-to-use-tables/comment-page-1/#comment-2335 Joe Clark Mon, 11 Aug 2008 19:10:56 +0000 http://www.aaronrussell.co.uk/?p=210#comment-2335 HTML E-mail enables phishing. You seem to be advocating the most practicable method of developing HTML E-mail messages that could defraud their recipients. (Just a guess – and this is off-topic – but you probably also top-post.) It’s fine for you to trot out statistics about the iPhone, but you conveniently ignore the prevalence of Opera, a standards-compliant browser that doesn’t need tables. HTML E-mail enables phishing. You seem to be advocating the most practicable method of developing HTML E-mail messages that could defraud their recipients. (Just a guess – and this is off-topic – but you probably also top-post.)

It’s fine for you to trot out statistics about the iPhone, but you conveniently ignore the prevalence of Opera, a standards-compliant browser that doesn’t need tables.

]]> By: Paul http://www.aaronrussell.co.uk/blog/reasons-for-web-designers-to-use-tables/comment-page-1/#comment-2309 Paul Mon, 11 Aug 2008 06:55:54 +0000 http://www.aaronrussell.co.uk/?p=210#comment-2309 Unfortunately its a case of still *having* to use tables for certain applications, rather than it being the correct application of technology, and the more we let certain applications dictate the technology used, the worse off we are. Designing for the iPhone should allows us to use CSS and HTML, it's more Apple's fault that we can't, and as developers we should be demanding standards compliant devices. As for emails, the same should apply - it's the devices failing to properly render the content. It's for these reasons that cross platform / cross device rendering still remains an elusive pipe dream, and considering that the mobile internet is here to stay, it's a poor reflection on the large companies who on one hand tell us they support standards, and on the other use their own quick fixes to get browser products out the door. Sigh. Unfortunately its a case of still *having* to use tables for certain applications, rather than it being the correct application of technology, and the more we let certain applications dictate the technology used, the worse off we are. Designing for the iPhone should allows us to use CSS and HTML, it’s more Apple’s fault that we can’t, and as developers we should be demanding standards compliant devices. As for emails, the same should apply – it’s the devices failing to properly render the content. It’s for these reasons that cross platform / cross device rendering still remains an elusive pipe dream, and considering that the mobile internet is here to stay, it’s a poor reflection on the large companies who on one hand tell us they support standards, and on the other use their own quick fixes to get browser products out the door. Sigh.

]]> By: kristarella http://www.aaronrussell.co.uk/blog/reasons-for-web-designers-to-use-tables/comment-page-1/#comment-2294 kristarella Mon, 11 Aug 2008 00:27:43 +0000 http://www.aaronrussell.co.uk/?p=210#comment-2294 CSS all the way... unless you're presenting tabular data, then tables are beautiful! <a href="http://www.randsinrepose.com/archives/2008/06/01/sweet_decay.html" rel="nofollow">Rands In Repose</a> uses tables really nicely, shame he doesn't use other good markup like headings, but his table presentation is sweet. I don't know where I stand on phone and email... my phone doesn't use the page's CSS, but it copes ok with nice semantic pages. I didn't realise email wasn't as standard when it comes to html presentation. CSS all the way… unless you’re presenting tabular data, then tables are beautiful!

Rands In Repose uses tables really nicely, shame he doesn’t use other good markup like headings, but his table presentation is sweet.

I don’t know where I stand on phone and email… my phone doesn’t use the page’s CSS, but it copes ok with nice semantic pages. I didn’t realise email wasn’t as standard when it comes to html presentation.

]]> By: Creative review 11 August 2008 | David Airey » Graphic and Logo Designer http://www.aaronrussell.co.uk/blog/reasons-for-web-designers-to-use-tables/comment-page-1/#comment-2292 Creative review 11 August 2008 | David Airey » Graphic and Logo Designer Sun, 10 Aug 2008 23:11:22 +0000 http://www.aaronrussell.co.uk/?p=210#comment-2292 [...] Three good reasons for web designers to use tables, from Aaron Russell. With the rise of CSS and standards, the mere mention of the word ‘tables’ amongst web designers is likely to bring a reaction as if you just swore to your grandmother. [...] [...] Three good reasons for web designers to use tables, from Aaron Russell. With the rise of CSS and standards, the mere mention of the word ‘tables’ amongst web designers is likely to bring a reaction as if you just swore to your grandmother. [...]

]]> By: Lucinda http://www.aaronrussell.co.uk/blog/reasons-for-web-designers-to-use-tables/comment-page-1/#comment-960 Lucinda Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:56:16 +0000 http://www.aaronrussell.co.uk/?p=210#comment-960 As Brian mentions I also banished tables from conventional web design years ago, however as your article states they still certainly have their uses. i still use tables for emailers and regularly for tabular data - there I said it! As Brian mentions I also banished tables from conventional web design years ago, however as your article states they still certainly have their uses. i still use tables for emailers and regularly for tabular data – there I said it!

]]> By: Tracey Grady http://www.aaronrussell.co.uk/blog/reasons-for-web-designers-to-use-tables/comment-page-1/#comment-899 Tracey Grady Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:04:55 +0000 http://www.aaronrussell.co.uk/?p=210#comment-899 Sitepoint published a guide on <a href="http://www.sitepoint.com/article/code-html-email-newsletters" rel="nofollow">HTML email marketing</a> a few weeks back - it's worth a look for some more information on using tables, and compatibility with various email readers. Using tables for email marketing and mobile web design: it seems that tables are the necessary evil for these formats because there's no better option which is widely supported (yet). Sitepoint published a guide on HTML email marketing a few weeks back – it’s worth a look for some more information on using tables, and compatibility with various email readers.

Using tables for email marketing and mobile web design: it seems that tables are the necessary evil for these formats because there’s no better option which is widely supported (yet).

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